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izzus

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#41 [url]

Feb 19 17 8:33 AM

Shan wrote:
snipped the tons of words

I'll nix the part about the B12 then. Looks like I was wrong about it.

It's not worth talking about how you can't avoid animal products or products that were manufactured with harm to animals. Veganism isn't about that. It's a fun way to make them squirm but they already know.

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izzus

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#42 [url]

Feb 19 17 8:37 AM

Shan wrote:
Well, I had my suspicions about the opening down to and including Downfall.

It seemed to cohere and settle down more from there.

Just an observation, not saying change any of that. A change of pace is refreshing and it was ... different, that's for sure.

That's one part.

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Shan

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#43 [url]

Feb 19 17 8:45 AM

izzus wrote:

Shan wrote:
snipped the tons of words

I'll nix the part about the B12 then. Looks like I was wrong about it.

It's not worth talking about how you can't avoid animal products or products that were manufactured with harm to animals. Veganism isn't about that. It's a fun way to make them squirm but they already know.

The only thing in a general sense I have to say about the science is just don't give anyone an avenue to deflect by picking on a point of science to avoid the problems with the writing, the characters, the art and so on. This isn't my area of expertise, though so whatever I said isn't the be all and end all so of course, use your best judgment.

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Shan

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#44 [url]

Feb 19 17 8:47 AM

izzus wrote:

Shan wrote:
Well, I had my suspicions about the opening down to and including Downfall.

It seemed to cohere and settle down more from there.

Just an observation, not saying change any of that. A change of pace is refreshing and it was ... different, that's for sure.

That's one part.

Would it be easier to just pick the parts where you were sober (this isn't a trick question now, is it?)

​I'll tag out for now and let someone else have a go (on top of everything else, it's a quarter to four in the morning here.)

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SmashLampjaw

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#45 [url]

Feb 19 17 2:26 PM

izzus wrote:
If you guys can correctly guess which parts I reviewed while drinking I'll start reviewing another comic from the most wanted list.
I've corrected "mana" to "manna" because I believe you meant "divine perfect food". I'm still in the process of reading this. I'd like to recommend one addition. In the image caption for the "corpses" comic, I'd like to recommend you include: "or bone-fed acid-filled skin sac for oranges"
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Shan wrote:
Interestingly enough, your body does produce Vitamin B12 but it's at a point below the stomach. This is because parietal cells in the stomach produce intrinsic factor which the Vitamin B12 needs to bind to in order for your gut to be able to absorb it.

I'm guessing in the far past, this wasn't an issue but due to evolution, the system's now been rendered non-functional like this probably because our diets changed so much at some point and we ate enough Vitamin B12 - so maybe when meat eating started?
When meat eating started is usually called "in the beginning". Omnivores are meat eaters evolved to supplement their diet with plant life, not the other way around. There's also the issue that not all humans absorb food the same way. One of the most famous examples (which the author had to take down because of harassment and threats from the cult of veganism) was when the author of the vegan recipe site Voracious had to give up veganism. She was literally dying because her body required meat to absorb nutrients due to her genealogy. B12 was one of the things she was most deficient in.

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izzus

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#46 [url]

Feb 19 17 2:57 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:
I've corrected "mana" to "manna" because I believe you meant "divine perfect food". I'm still in the process of reading this. I'd like to recommend one addition. In the image caption for the "corpses" comic, I'd like to recommend you include: "or bone-fed acid-filled skin sac for oranges"

I'm okay with the manna thing.

What do you mean by bone-fed?

And is the B12 issue with dairy/meat an actual thing or not? I've been looking at more and more studies and they say it is.

Last Edited By: izzus Feb 19 17 2:59 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Long Tom

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#47 [url]

Feb 19 17 2:57 PM

Looks like the whole review is going to end up being a group project by the time it is ready!

​I read it myself and found it basically okay.  Of course, the real problem with the webcomic is not so much what it says about diet and nutrition, but how it has a "Hathor The Cow Goddess"-like way of presenting its arguments and putting down dissent.  I'd even recommend it seriously for an A-bomb tag, the way Hathor itself did.

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izzus

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#48 [url]

Feb 19 17 3:01 PM

Well if you see something you don't like in the review go ahead and change it. Or at least bring it up here so that I can change it.

I'm all for the A-Bomb tag.

Last Edited By: izzus Feb 19 17 3:03 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#49 [url]

Feb 19 17 3:16 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:

izzus wrote:
If you guys can correctly guess which parts I reviewed while drinking I'll start reviewing another comic from the most wanted list.

I've corrected "mana" to "manna" because I believe you meant "divine perfect food". I'm still in the process of reading this. I'd like to recommend one addition. In the image caption for the "corpses" comic, I'd like to recommend you include: "or bone-fed acid-filled skin sac for oranges"
.
Shan wrote:
Interestingly enough, your body does produce Vitamin B12 but it's at a point below the stomach. This is because parietal cells in the stomach produce intrinsic factor which the Vitamin B12 needs to bind to in order for your gut to be able to absorb it.

I'm guessing in the far past, this wasn't an issue but due to evolution, the system's now been rendered non-functional like this probably because our diets changed so much at some point and we ate enough Vitamin B12 - so maybe when meat eating started?

When meat eating started is usually called "in the beginning". Omnivores are meat eaters evolved to supplement their diet with plant life, not the other way around. There's also the issue that not all humans absorb food the same way. One of the most famous examples (which the author had to take down because of harassment and threats from the cult of veganism) was when the author of the vegan recipe site Voracious had to give up veganism. She was literally dying because her body required meat to absorb nutrients due to her genealogy. B12 was one of the things she was most deficient in.

There was a time before. OK, that was about 2.5 million years ago or so but it was there. Might be when we started to switch to external Vitamin B12 and ultimately leave our system of production redundant. I shall have to ask ... someone. It might be how our appendix went from being something we needed to break down cellulose when we were plant eaters (again, millions of years back) to being that thing which effectively 1) does nothing 2) gives you appendicitis if you're unlucky 3) gives you cancer if you're reallly​ unlucky.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet.html

​Anyway, probably all moot as we were pratically a different species back then.

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SmashLampjaw

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#50 [url]

Feb 19 17 3:28 PM

izzus wrote:
SmashLampjaw wrote:
I've corrected "mana" to "manna" because I believe you meant "divine perfect food". I'm still in the process of reading this. I'd like to recommend one addition. In the image caption for the "corpses" comic, I'd like to recommend you include: "or bone-fed acid-filled skin sac for oranges"
I'm okay with the manna thing.

What do you mean by bone-fed?
Fruit trees require huge amounts of minerals, and bone meal is one of the things they "eat" to get it. Particularly orange trees. I knew about Voracious because the author was a friend of a friend. Said friend was debating veganism and was putting up some things she found from vegans she knew who'd given it up. Another article (which I wish I'd bookmarked) was about feeding fruit trees bone meal being a centuries-old bit of knowledge, and about how top soil is made up of countless microbes that feed on blood, bone, and ash. There was an interesting bit about some old graves near a fruit tree had been unearthed, and the trees roots had grown into the shape of the skeletons it had absorbed inside of the pine coffins it eventually grew into.
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izzus wrote:
And is the B12 issue with dairy/meat an actual thing or not? I've been looking at more and more studies and they say it is.
The article I linked was by a former vegan who was unable to absorb B12 from supplements or vegetable sources. Some people can; that's not in dispute. She couldn't.
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Shan wrote:
There was a time before. OK, that was about 2.5 million years ago or so but it was there.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet.html
Your article doesn't actually cover/cite a time before we ate meat. It's written by an anthropologist (unless I missed something) and is speculation about what on-going meat eating has done to humans over time.

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Feb 19 17 3:32 PM. Edited 2 times.

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Shan

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#51 [url]

Feb 19 17 3:41 PM

Well, if we go back far enough (like really far). The technical dividing line between human and proto/pre-human may well come before this. We are talking 2.5+ million years ago.

http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

(point of this second one is that in there somewhere, our guts were much better suited to break down plant life - however whenever our ancestors were exclusively that, they might not actually have been human yet.)

Anyway, to the practical point about this review:

"Meat isn't required for human health."

Technically it isn't. Not everyone the world over can afford or acquire it but they're not malnourished of deficient either and their natural diet is sufficient. Of course, vegetarianism be it voluntary or by necessity/lack of choice =/= veganism.

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SmashLampjaw

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#52 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:01 PM

I was trying to avoid getting off-subject. Speculation on what pre-humans ate is irrelevant and you will have no trouble finding examples of those claims online. The difficulties some people have absorbing nutrients from non-animal sources because of their genealogy is at issue, and you have not addressed it with a single search result for people willing to claim we used to be vegetarians somewhere before history began.
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Shan wrote:
"Meat isn't required for human health."

Technically it isn't. Not everyone the world over can afford or acquire it but they're not malnourished of deficient either and their natural diet is sufficient.
I find this statement incredulous; in a world where famine is commonplace, it's difficult to believe there are starving people who aren't getting meat but who also aren't malnourished.

I know what you meant though; I'm not going to be pedantic about it. Many cultures substitute insect life for eating higher animals. I would still call that "meat" even though vegans ignore the deaths of insects necessary to their lifestyle so they can continue pretending they cause no harm. That's why I've used the terms "animal sources" and "non-animal sources" instead of "meat" or "dairy".

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Feb 19 17 4:15 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#53 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:17 PM

I made a mention of insects upstream a bit. My only point here is that we shy away from absolute statements in medicine and medicine related subjects like public health and population dynamics because it's asking for trouble. I'd have to research it and contact some people I know who work extensively in the field but from experience, making a global blanket statement about all the people of the world on anything is ultimately is asking for trouble. Even stuff like - you'd think you couldn't survive without a cerebellum but actually ...

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plarblman

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#54 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:20 PM

Even putting aside nutritional issues, there's also logistical problems with veganism. If 100% of humanity became vegan, the amount of plant-based proteins required would put a massive strain on what little arable land we have left; soy in particular requires lots of water to grow. Whereas grazing animals such as cows and sheep, or foraging animals like pigs and chickens, can easily be raised on grasslands that wouldn't otherwise support large crops.

I know I'm not helping with the derailed thread, but something to think about. Back on topic, the review looks ok from my end, no real complaints.

Last Edited By: plarblman Feb 19 17 4:22 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#55 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:30 PM

Producing meat also consumes a lot (and I do mean a lot of resources). Several kg plant life + a lot of water + other stuff ----> 1 kg beef. They're punching major holes in the Amazon with cattle farming.

No-one sane is saying we should turn the planet 100% vegetarian, never mind vegan anyway. We shouldn't conflate the two either.

I figured this had to be the case.

What percentage of Indians are vegetarian?
According to the 2006 Hindu-CNN-IBN State of the Nation Survey, 31% of Indians are vegetarians, while another 9% consumes eggs. Among the various communities, vegetarianism was most common among Jain community and then Brahmins at 55%, and less frequent among Muslims (3%) and residents of coastal states.

That's probably at least 300 million or so people. Even with the usual errors in sampling and the like with surveys, that would still mean 100-200 million people at the very least.
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Indians-are-vegetarian

That's just India, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country

Even if you halve or even quarter those numbers to be on the really save conservative side in terms of estimating numbers of people who are true vegetarians by definition, that's still a lot of people.

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plarblman

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#57 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:57 PM

Perhaps, but two things come to my mind: 1. India's a tropical and lush country, so it could probably support a higher amount of plant-based diets than, say, Mongolia. 2. There's also a lot of poverty in India. I don't know how well that translates to malnutrition, or whether that has more to do with overpopulation than a poor diet, but it's a variable to consider.

My point is that I wouldn't use India as an apples-to-apples comparison for the feasibility of having a mostly vegan country. If you want to argue that people could do with less meat and more vegetables in their day-to-day diet, fine, I'm on board with that. I've been switching to meatless lunches anyway to try to drop weight. I'd just be wary about trying to make an example out of any particular country where any number of extenuating circumstances could come into play. You'll notice in that wikipedia link that a lot of those countries have higher levels of veganism primarily because of economic reasons (read: poverty) rather than because they had the choice. Veganism as a practice seems to be something only wealthy countries can afford (outliers like India aside), as most of the countries listed that are above 10% vegan are western.

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SmashLampjaw

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#58 [url]

Feb 19 17 4:59 PM

Shan wrote:
My only point here is that we shy away from absolute statements in medicine and medicine related subjects like public health and population dynamics because it's asking for trouble.
Nothing I said and no part of the article I linked could be construed as "absolute statements". You should have read it instead of searching for links to throw back at me. I think you'd be surprised by its contents.
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Shan wrote:
Producing meat also consumes a lot (and I do mean a lot of resources). Several kg plant life + a lot of water + other stuff ----> 1 kg beef.
That is willful disinformation invented by environmentalists/vegans with no clue how anything works. Not all land works for farming but works fine for grass, and can only be used for agriculture through the use of top soil deteriorating petroleum-based fertilizers. Raising cattle on otherwise useless land doesn't consume resources that would otherwise be used to feed people. In other words, large swaths of ranch land are unsustainable for farms.

"Water consumption" is an absolute bullshit statistic everywhere I've seen it used because it ignores 1) where the water comes from and 2) that water doesn't cease to exist when consumed.
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izzus wrote:
Damn what does this have to do with the review?
I was addressing your decision to remove comments on B12; they could be adjusted to be factual.

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Shan

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#59 [url]

Feb 19 17 5:03 PM

It just has to do with this sentence:

"Meat isn't required for human health."

I'm of the position it isn't. Definitely makes life easier (except for the animal the meat is from, presumably) as even a small amount of meat can substitute for a lot more plant life that you have to consume as an equivalent substitute but it can be done and you won't be at any kind of biological disadvantage either.

Just saying is all.

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Shan

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#60 [url]

Feb 19 17 5:23 PM

OK, to answer your question about the Vitamin B12 issue, it is a point of vulnerability for people on purely plant based diets. So, I wouldn't take it out myself. I would use it as an important significant differentiator between vegetarians and vegans at a practical and health level - vegetarians do have the milk, cheese, eggs, yogurt option.

I guess vegans could do yogurt?

Supplements could also be an option, probably the easiest one. I mean where Vitamin D's concerned, you can also do that purely naturally but it's a lot easier for us people who are never going to be mistaken for someone with just a tan to just take a tablet, especially in blighted hellscapes like England.

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