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Shmeckie

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Feb 20 16 12:26 AM

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I may be jumping the gun here, but does this review even belong on the site? The Bad Webcomics Wiki is about highlighting bad webcomics, if I'm not mistaken. But this review seems to have been written by a fan, focusing on quite a bit of praise to the comic, and giving it almost straight 3/5 scores. Even the Defining Flaw is listed as "I don't think anything major yet", and the Downfall section says, flat out, there is no downfall. So then why is it here? According to this review it's not a "Bad Webcomic", and if it is and written by a fan, isn't that counter-intuitive to what this wiki is all about? I wasn't here for the writing of the review, so maybe something was decided that I just didn't see, so if I'm wrong I'm open to hearing why. But as it stands it feels like, from an outsider's perspective, that this review doesn't belong on the wiki...
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Shan

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Feb 20 16 12:50 AM

Shmeckie wrote:
I may be jumping the gun here, but does this review even belong on the site? The Bad Webcomics Wiki is about highlighting bad webcomics, if I'm not mistaken. But this review seems to have been written by a fan, focusing on quite a bit of praise to the comic, and giving it almost straight 3/5 scores. Even the Defining Flaw is listed as "I don't think anything major yet", and the Downfall section says, flat out, there is no downfall. So then why is it here? According to this review it's not a "Bad Webcomic", and if it is and written by a fan, isn't that counter-intuitive to what this wiki is all about? I wasn't here for the writing of the review, so maybe something was decided that I just didn't see, so if I'm wrong I'm open to hearing why. But as it stands it feels like, from an outsider's perspective, that this review doesn't belong on the wiki...

That would be me, I wrote it. I put it there on the grounds that Exiern got listed and at that point, it was more or less the same comic. Like the main comic (whose review I rewrote) it's kind of precarious and could topple either way. I ran my changes to the original past everyone a lot in a thread before making changes (I think my major argument was that even though the review was written in 2013, it didn't even mention anything past 2008).

I did/do a lot of work for the people who run Exiern in various ways (which I declared up front) though that came about because of this Wiki, I never even knew it existed before reading the review here and then going and reading it. The Exiern review was my first ever writing here and in retrospect, it's still kind of terrible so I'm working on rewriting it (for starters, I should I should not have to keep apologising for my opinion. It's obviously my opinion, just state it and reasons why).

Anyway, what you're saying has been at the back of my mind since I wrote it, so what do you advise. I was trying to get across that it could go either way (I've seen where it's gone since with the Patreon only stuff, though that's going to be released one day albeit modified with the NSFW stuff removed. I do allude to it in the review).

Oh, I should add there's I think at least 4 pages that wouldn't exist yet if I hadn't paid for them to be made because I thought the 1/month production schedule was too slow. I don't get nor do I want any say in the content. 

Look, my view is that both Exiern and Exiern: Dark Reflections should still be listed because I actually still think they're both mediocre (using the term more correctly, as in neither good or bad). The good bits are good but Exiern especially (given it's more than 10 years old and 750 pages plus long) is a spectacular sprawling mess. I also think Dark Reflections is still in that range as well given its tortured production cycle.

I also used precedent, the Wiki does have reviews for mediocre comics as well as flat out bad ones. The two examples I can think of when I did this were "No Need For Bushido" and "Dresden Codak" both of which ended with an Overall 3 review as well (though I know some categories were 2's and 1's). 

Anyway, I treat 3's as could tip either way as in could have made greatness but still has marked flaws and that's where I put both Exierns at the moment. On that rationale is why I would argue for both inclusion and the scores they have.

Second Edit: Went and read it for the first time in a while. I didn't specifically mention I help out with the actual making of the comic in the review unlike the Exiern review did I? Oh bloody hell .... I really thought I had.

Last Edited By: Shan Feb 20 16 1:21 AM. Edited 2 times.

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Goat

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Feb 20 16 1:51 AM

I've also wondered about this one, Shmeckie. Shan, I think if a comic can be described as "could go either way" it doesn't deserve a review here yet - and this one, given your positivity toward it definitely doesn't. Exiern having a well earned review here doesn't automatically entitle any related works to get their own straight from the starting line. If it goes downhill, by all means. But sitting and watching and waiting for it to happen with a written review published at the ready is a bit extreme.

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Shan

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Feb 20 16 2:38 AM

Well, it's been a while now but from what I remember, it passed muster with ... someone and they even listed it on the New Reviews section for me. I'd have to go back and check for names.

It has taken almost 10 years to get this far as well due to the incredibly tortured history of Exiern's production in general, so there's that. Plus even what's been done I think it's ... well all right but it's not great.

Still, there was the fact I wrote this and rewrote Exiern when I first started here, haven't really thought about the Dark Reflections review per se for a while but I was planning a general overhaul of the Exiern review for more or less the same reasons here, I can add this to the do list. I was generally planning to clean up my past efforts before trying to generate new reviews from scratch anyway.

I guess what I was trying to say, still guilty of the things that landed them here in the first place (well Exiern anyway) but trying to crawl out of that hole. Not out yet though. Obviously I need to do better than that though since it's really not coming across though.

Let me put it this way, even though I'm closely involved with them both (more so than the average reader - except that I don't read them anymore just to confuse the issue) even I think they're both still somewhat ... not good? flawed? naff? dank? bollocks?

How about I work on trying to get that across better (my writing's come some way since I landed here) and then after that we can have a quorum? meeting? forum? whatever to decide what to do with this review. If the decision is to nuke it then so be it. The main and only reason it's here is because I thought it deserved to be. I was still in my hate to hate anything phase since I'm not a creator and these things require a lot of effort. Then I Dream of a Jeannie Bottle came along and I changed my mind on this attitude, this review was from before that.

I'm now in a frame of mind where I can look at it again and make it clear I'm putting more boot into it than it actually looks like.

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Shan

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Feb 20 16 2:50 AM

Actually, you know what, give me until the end of the weekend to clean both this and Exiern up, it's something I've been planning to with Exiern for a while before I thought I could move forward with trying a new full review from scratch and I can add this since I thought of it as an offshoot of the original review anyway and then let me know what you think.

Like I said, I'm much more able to be properly critical about things after I finally ran into things I could be enraged about. I wasn't so much by these but then I found ... other things.

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Sindy

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Feb 20 16 2:59 AM

We have a precedent though.

​Raine Dog and Ozzy and Millie are by the same creator and reviewer. One is awful, the other is rated a 5 I think. The point was to prove the same creator can fuck something up and make something good and we won't discredit his good work.

​In Exiern's case there's a fuckup and a meh. I don't see the problem in this case. If he would only review a standalone meh comic, sure. But it's part of Exiern, by the same guy, still with a questionable premise, and he got the okay for the reviews from several people aware he's a fanboy.

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Shan

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Feb 20 16 3:50 AM

That Ozy and Millie review was interesting (all 4's).

Word of warning though, don't go to the Encyclopedia Dramatica article on the author. Or if you must, disable all images first. Or maybe only look at it from a computer as far away from your own and as anonymous as possible. Trust me on this.

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Long Tom

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Feb 20 16 7:06 AM

Sindy wrote:
We have a precedent though.

​Raine Dog and Ozzy and Millie are by the same creator and reviewer. One is awful, the other is rated a 5 I think. The point was to prove the same creator can fuck something up and make something good and we won't discredit his good work.

​In Exiern's case there's a fuckup and a meh. I don't see the problem in this case. If he would only review a standalone meh comic, sure. But it's part of Exiern, by the same guy, still with a questionable premise, and he got the okay for the reviews from several people aware he's a fanboy.

I wrote all the reviews on anything done by D. C. Simpson, to prove that she could be both great and really bad.  Ozy and Millie was a classic combination of Peanuts and Calvin and Hobbes, and was cute and clever while the characters were relatively realistic.  Raine Dog was a failed attempt at an "artsy" comic, where Simpson had a concept and realized it wasn't working out.  I Drew This was a lame liberal propaganda cartoon, while Simpson's actual newspaper comic, Phoebe and her Unicorn, is certainly better than a lot of newspaper cartoons (which arguably isn't saying much).

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Long Tom

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Feb 20 16 7:07 AM

Shan wrote:
That Ozy and Millie review was interesting (all 4's).

Word of warning though, don't go to the Encyclopedia Dramatica article on the author. Or if you must, disable all images first. Or maybe only look at it from a computer as far away from your own and as anonymous as possible. Trust me on this.

Better yet, avoid Encyclopedia Dramatica at all.  It's supposed to be obscene.

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Shan

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Feb 21 16 12:32 AM

OK, I've read all of this and I've decided to split the difference. There's a few of us with the benefit of hindsight think our first reviews were not as good as they should be. I've been planning to redo Exiern for a while and have been working on some offline drafts. Hadn't been thinking specifically about Dark Reflections but I hadn't yet learned or felt comfortable with putting the boot in. I certainly am more so now and even at the time I couldn't completely shake the feeling the tone was wrong for this site and its intentions.

So, I'm going to redo these two before even attempting another new review. However, I'm going to need more time than the end of Sunday I realise. Trying to meet deadlines has ended badly for me before. So I'm going to take my time. They've both been up since about October 2015 in their present form, a few more weeks shouldn't matter. The Exiern people don't care what I do as long as I'm factually accurate. I might work for them in effect but they know I've always had reservations about many things in it and they share a lot of those opinions actually.

Now about Encyclopedia Dramatica, I've read other articles there before but especially be careful with this one. One of the pictures of the author of Ozy and Millie is especially NSFW for work even by their standards. It's like, is that ... are they? They are. They really are.

Next step.

Get brain and eye bleach.

Maybe it's worth getting Tor before looking at that site. Preferably Tor on a computer and network far far away from yours before looking at site just to be sure.

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