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Mar 10 16 8:32 PM

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It seems like a lot of the reviews that I read on this website use "misogyny" or some variation of it when describing the comic. Sometimes it's completely justified (like in U.S Angel Corps, which is a comic that blatantly sexualizes female suffering), other times it's a matter of semantics (where it's more sexist than blatantly misogynistic) and other times it's completely unfounded and just seems like mud-slinging (Shadman, I'll elaborate later.) Having shitty female characters does not make a comic misogynistic (especially if all of the characters are shitty), having over-the-top designs for females and not for males is not misogynistic (more sexist than anything), and making fun of domestic abuse and rape is not misogynistic. This is where Shadman comes in. Think what you want of his comic but it's not misogynistic. Both female rape and male rape have been used for laughs. Why does that make it misogynistic? And with the sexual aspect there seems to be a bit of a double-standard going on. Niels got shit for "trivializing rape" and making its male characters practically into sex-toys but it was never accused of being misandrist (yes, I know the Wiki isn't written by one person but I thought it was interesting to note because several reviewers have done what I noted above and I thought it was interesting to bring it up.) Just thought I'd give my two cents. This site isn't run by rabid feminazis, is it?
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SmashLampjaw

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#1 [url]

Mar 10 16 9:17 PM

I did a search on the Wiki for "Shadman" and found no results. Would you list the comic names and specific problems with each of them regarding the use of the word "misogyny"?

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#2 [url]

Mar 10 16 9:37 PM

Well, this is what I was reffering to http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Sh%C3%A4dbase and I know the VG Cats review had a passing, nonsensical mention of it. http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Least_I_Could_Do This has another example. http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Strawberry_Death_Cake This is an example of it being more sexist than misogynistic.http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/After_Eden This just seemed like grasping at straws from what was a joke.To be honest, you could look up "misogyny bad webcomics wiki" and you'd probably get half of the reviews. 

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SmashLampjaw

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#4 [url]

Mar 10 16 9:49 PM

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee23 wrote:
Well, this is what I was reffering to http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Sh%C3%A4dbase and I know the VG Cats review had a passing, nonsensical mention of it. http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Least_I_Could_Do This has another example. http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Strawberry_Death_Cake This is an example of it being more sexist than misogynistic.http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/After_Eden This just seemed like grasping at straws from what was a joke.To be honest, you could look up "misogyny bad webcomics wiki" and you'd probably get half of the reviews. 
Well I meant more, could you list each comic and beside that comic make a brief argument why the use of misogyny was wrong. In other words, make your case the reviewer was wrong.

Just taking a look at the first one, the reviewer linked the word "misogyny" to this Shadbase comic where Samus getting her face smashed with a beer bottle is played for laughs. I have trouble seeing that as not being at least hateful, and I personally wince at how loosely the word "misogyny" gets thrown around by nearly everyone on the internet.

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Shmeckie

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#5 [url]

Mar 10 16 10:25 PM

To be fair to Shadbase (which isn't something I like to make a habit of, believe me) that strip in question is being critical of Samus' treatment in Other M. It's using blue shock humor to illustrate the neutering of Samus in that game and how a traditionally strong female character was essentially made into this man's subservient bitch. The imagery itself may be "triggering" but the point and the actual joke of the comic itself is far from misogynistic. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Believe me, I have zero good things to say about Shadman beyond the fact he'll take shots at things I also hate, but he's not a misogynist. Just the definition of an edgelord.

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fallinq

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#6 [url]

Mar 10 16 10:40 PM

Shouldn't this be under Challenges to Existing Reviews?

Also, while I agree that Shadbase as a whole is more misanthropic than misogynistic, that particular comic uses violence against women as a punchline, which could easily be seen as misogynistic. It's listed as just one example of how Shadbase tries sooo hard to be offensive. Is there a bit of a double standard, since an example of misandry isn't listed? Maybe, but I'm not big on picking things apart with a fine toothed comb looking for microaggressions to get offended by. The last thing we need is some kind of quota in every review where there has to be equal representation of all the aggrieved groups. LICD has a little section about the author making a comic mocking a black guy just for mentioning his race in passing during an entry for a contest. However, there's also an LICD music video that basically mocks white people for ever feeling sad, and declares that white people never suffer anything terrible ever, because they're white. We might decide to add that to the review, but do we HAVE to add it to the review, because equality? That's not a rabbit hole we need to go down.

People can write reviews however they want, unless they're making an argument that we have hard evidence is based on faulty reasoning. For example, claiming a strip is misogynistic for treating female characters this way, when male characters are treated the same way. But that's not the argument that is being made in the Shadbase review. The comic isn't presented as a sinister work of misogyny designed to intimidate and oppress women. It's presented as a comic that occasionally uses hitting/raping women as a lazy joke because "ow, the edge." Which is absolutely accurate.

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Shmeckie

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#7 [url]

Mar 10 16 11:28 PM

His point is the use of misogyny in several reviews, though, not just Shadbase. Not sure if he's right or not, and I'm definitely not of the mind that any reviews should be changed, but I think it serves as something writers should be thinking about. Namely; are they defaulting to an accusation of misogyny when it isn't merited?

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fallinq

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#8 [url]

Mar 11 16 6:41 AM

Well, if it's just something to warn authors to watch out for then fair enough. I just don't want this to devolve into word policing. That was the point of the long ramble I posted last night.

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#9 [url]

Mar 11 16 12:46 PM

Like I said in my original post, Shadbase doesn't seem to have a bias towards how terribly it treats its characters. A lot of the time with domestic abuse, it's used for females being a mostly female-oriented area of violence and while males just get regular beat downs. I don't know if that's a conscientious choice on his behalf to make it like this but it seems to be an attempt at drawing parallels between reality and fiction. Strawberry Death Cake just has lots of fan service and that's not really showing any true contempt for women. The VG Cats review calls a joke comic misogynist when the punchline is usually just violence and then links two comics completely unrelated to misogyny (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=271 andhttp://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=254) . After Eden has one example of making a joke about women being dumb and another one which is more about (perceived) moral decadence than anything (since it's Christian satire.) Least I Could Do just has a womanizing character and multiple references to sexual exploits and nothing really besides. Least I Could Do doesn't actively demean women as much as it uses them as prop for jokes- which basically every 4/5 panel, practically continuity-less comic does. Another example is Dueling Analogs where it's again, a joke comic and one that doesn't even seem to have a particular interest in insulting women. They give this as an example of misogyny: http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/unevenly-matched/. This is just unbelievably retarded. How is this specific comic misogynistic at all? Most of these are just stupid humor comics that got "misogyny" flung at them just to make them look worse. Strawberry Death Cake, the only exception mentioned here, uses blatant sexualization for appeal; something that, like I mentioned, Niels does too.

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#10 [url]

Mar 11 16 12:53 PM

I'm not saying we should point out of every individual example of a certain group being made fun of, in fact I want the exact opposite. I'm saying it's retarded to go out of your way to find examples of panels where it makes fun of/demeans a woman just so you can add "misogynistic" to the list of adjectives used to describe why the comic is so terrible. The solution to (what seems to be) a double-standard is to stop applying deeper meaning to things that legitimately have none just so you can say that the comic or person writing it supports terrible things.

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Sindy

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#13 [url]

Mar 12 16 1:02 AM

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee23 wrote:
[mysoginy isn't sexism, sexism is different, sexualising women isn't mysoginy, it's sexism blah blah blah mysoginy blah  blah blah sexism] This site isn't run by rabid feminazis, is it?

Those words don't mean what you think they mean.

Mysoginy: noun 1.hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women
Sexism: 1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; unfair treatment of people because of their sex

Is it not the same. Fucking. Thing? Because to me it sure fucking looks like sexism is the unspecific name while mysoginy is the specific name for sexism towards women.
Wherever the hell you got your definitions from, you got them just as wrong as those "rabid feminazis" you mention. But thanks for taking the time to argue against something you're wrong, subjective and biased on. It was funny to see you try to argue they're two different terms that can never coexist, though.

Other than that, yes, it is a complaint often used. I mean, not like Sohmer has been a piece of shit for over a decade and female fans meeting him at cons say they feel uneasy, not like Shadbase is so edgy against women you can feel the virginity and frustration come off the page, and not like "lol punch a woman in the cunt" jokes are most often used by immature idiots.
For fairness, I suggest we go and add "sexual objectification and unreal standards on men's acting, interactions and personalities" in all the yaoi comics. Except oh wait they already mention that.

Less stingy edit: I get it. You hate feminazis. I do too. They ruin media they don't even consume, it's obvious when they cry that there are no good female characters in video games or fantasy novels or comics and fans can list 1001 examples. Shit, look at Star Wars, everyone claiming Ep7 is the most progressive for having blacks and women when any fan is gonna wonder if Leia was a man and Lando, Windu and Fetts were magically white.
But attempting to oppose feminazis by being the same brand of idiot from another angle is retarded. The word "mysoginy" is used correctly here with correct examples (where links still work). Stop defending proven shitheads just because waaah dumblr is out to get all men. Feminazis calling mysoginy on everything does NOT render accurate examples null.
Now go reevaluate what you're trying to do here. And maybe understand that the best way to prove that SJWs are retarded is to give them counterexamples, not defend random shitbags against third parties not involved in your WOMEN ARE OUT TO GET US MEN BECAUSE THEY HATE THAT WE LIKE TITTIES "war".

editedit:  And all these articles date back before the Social Justice fad. So unless BWW started it, which I doubt, I say you take your issues to other places that are clearly jumping the PC bandwagon. You have no real complaint, nor real proof that the reviewers exaggerate their claims. You're here cause you skimmed the articles, saw "mysoginistic" and flipped your shit. I got all I needed to understand why you're so peeved by it from that one phrase I left from your quote. 

Last Edited By: Sindy Mar 12 16 1:40 AM. Edited 4 times.

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#14 [url]

Mar 12 16 10:57 AM

Sindy wrote:

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee23 wrote:
[mysoginy isn't sexism, sexism is different, sexualising women isn't mysoginy, it's sexism blah blah blah mysoginy blah  blah blah sexism] This site isn't run by rabid feminazis, is it?

Those words don't mean what you think they mean.

Mysoginy: noun 1.hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women
Sexism: 1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; unfair treatment of people because of their sex

Is it not the same. Fucking. Thing? Because to me it sure fucking looks like sexism is the unspecific name while mysoginy is the specific name for sexism towards women.
Wherever the hell you got your definitions from, you got them just as wrong as those "rabid feminazis" you mention. But thanks for taking the time to argue against something you're wrong, subjective and biased on. It was funny to see you try to argue they're two different terms that can never coexist, though.

Other than that, yes, it is a complaint often used. I mean, not like Sohmer has been a piece of shit for over a decade and female fans meeting him at cons say they feel uneasy, not like Shadbase is so edgy against women you can feel the virginity and frustration come off the page, and not like "lol punch a woman in the cunt" jokes are most often used by immature idiots.
For fairness, I suggest we go and add "sexual objectification and unreal standards on men's acting, interactions and personalities" in all the yaoi comics. Except oh wait they already mention that.

Less stingy edit: I get it. You hate feminazis. I do too. They ruin media they don't even consume, it's obvious when they cry that there are no good female characters in video games or fantasy novels or comics and fans can list 1001 examples. Shit, look at Star Wars, everyone claiming Ep7 is the most progressive for having blacks and women when any fan is gonna wonder if Leia was a man and Lando, Windu and Fetts were magically white.
But attempting to oppose feminazis by being the same brand of idiot from another angle is retarded. The word "mysoginy" is used correctly here with correct examples (where links still work). Stop defending proven shitheads just because waaah dumblr is out to get all men. Feminazis calling mysoginy on everything does NOT render accurate examples null.
Now go reevaluate what you're trying to do here. And maybe understand that the best way to prove that SJWs are retarded is to give them counterexamples, not defend random shitbags against third parties not involved in your WOMEN ARE OUT TO GET US MEN BECAUSE THEY HATE THAT WE LIKE TITTIES "war".

editedit:  And all these articles date back before the Social Justice fad. So unless BWW started it, which I doubt, I say you take your issues to other places that are clearly jumping the PC bandwagon. You have no real complaint, nor real proof that the reviewers exaggerate their claims. You're here cause you skimmed the articles, saw "mysoginistic" and flipped your shit. I got all I needed to understand why you're so peeved by it from that one phrase I left from your quote. 

You didn't have to be so mean. ;-; I was joking at the end, I didn't really mean it at all. The word was just being used a lot and especially when it comes to joke comics which really don't have any bias towards anyone. I never thought this site was run by SJW's, you just took and off-hand comment and ran with it; if you noticed my later comments, I thought the real reasoning behind was to add a certain feel of righteousness to the review and make the comic look worse than it really is. Granted, I honestly did have a misconception of the word "misogyny" and thought it only implied hatred and that affected how I wrote this (but then again, the word "misogyny" is almost always related to the hatred of women so cut me some slack.) But even if VG Cats is misogynistic by definition, the criticism is really moot because you'd have to apply a hundred other definitions for bigotry to them just to drive the point home. If it's more than a shortly-paneled, continuity-less comic, then I'd give you some points because they're actually trying to make something other than just dumb jokes all of the time and that means the seeming hatred of groups of people becomes a little more serious. I will begrudgingly now have to say that Strawberry Death Cake's review uses the term correctly and along with that, the criticism of constant fan-service is just because it can hinder your enjoyment of a comic. That second part is extremely important because even if a comic is "misogynistic" it really doesn't matter if it doesn't 1.Go out of its way to demean women. 2. Try to tell an even remotely serious story. 3. Hinder the comic in anyway unless you're looking to be offended (this last one applies if the previous criteria are met.) Again, I did mention that the review of Niel included some sections that talked about the sexulization of the male characters. But what I did point out was that they didn't use the term "misogynistic" which is interesting while not exactly offensive or incriminating, so to speak (especially since it actually affects the enjoyment of the comic.)

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Sindy

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#15 [url]

Mar 12 16 12:20 PM

...oh god, did I spend so much time on the internet I can't take jokes anymore?

Sorry! I've been spinning around circles where they scream about SJW pandering whenever someone brings up an issue like this. Felt like the same.

But yeah at least in MY understanding, sexism is unspecified, misogyny is towards women and misandry towards men. From the reviews you picked, most actually have sexist creators. VG cats is retarded so you're probably right that the reviewer didn't need to go out of their way to mention misogyny.

It's my understanding all these reviewers are male so it's probably not a personal crusade, maybe they just have even less tolerance for these things.

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#16 [url]

Mar 12 16 12:45 PM

Sindy wrote:
...oh god, did I spend so much time on the internet I can't take jokes anymore?

Sorry! I've been spinning around circles where they scream about SJW pandering whenever someone brings up an issue like this. Felt like the same.

But yeah at least in MY understanding, sexism is unspecified, misogyny is towards women and misandry towards men. From the reviews you picked, most actually have sexist creators. VG cats is retarded so you're probably right that the reviewer didn't need to go out of their way to mention misogyny.

It's my understanding all these reviewers are male so it's probably not a personal crusade, maybe they just have even less tolerance for these things.

Most of these seemed pretty retarded. Only one that feels remotely justified to mention "misogyny" is again, Strawberry Death Cake. It's not even a crusade, it's just a shaming tactic to make the comic and creator look bad.

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peabrain

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#17 [url]

Mar 12 16 3:53 PM

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that "Least I Can Do" is not misogynistic when a recurring character is the "suck for a buck" lady.

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#18 [url]

Mar 12 16 4:37 PM

peabrain wrote:
You're going to have a hard time convincing me that "Least I Can Do" is not misogynistic when a recurring character is the "suck for a buck" lady.

Again, even if it is, why would this affect anyone's judgement on a (let me use this term again) 5/6 panel, practically continuity-less comedy comic?

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peabrain

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#19 [url]

Mar 12 16 8:35 PM

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee23 wrote:
Again, even if it is, why would this affect anyone's judgement on a (let me use this term again) 5/6 panel, practically continuity-less comedy comic?

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean here. Could you elabroate?

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#20 [url]

Mar 12 16 10:04 PM

peabrain wrote:

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee23 wrote:
Again, even if it is, why would this affect anyone's judgement on a (let me use this term again) 5/6 panel, practically continuity-less comedy comic?

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean here. Could you elabroate?

To feel the need to call a dumb joke comic that isn't trying to accomplish anything "misogynistic" is silly. Calling these types of comics' portrayal of women shallow and misogynistic really doesn't prove anything because of how they're written. If it's pervasive and clearly biased towards women, OK. Because that could actually affect how you enjoy the comic. But, again, if it's anything like VG Cats or Shadbase and shows no real bias towards women by making terrible things happen to everyone, then I really don't see any valid reason to call it "misogynistic".

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