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Shan

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#181 [url]

Jan 21 17 11:00 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:

Lt Art Major wrote:

Is Homestuck bad enough to warrant a review?

That is what we are discussing. I think yes, Smash thinks yes, but clearly doesn't want to do it himself, and everyone else either doesn't care or hasn't read it.

I volunteered to review it months ago. The only reason I haven't was it never seemed to me like a clear decision on if it should happen, and there's been very limited participation from the... I guess you'd call them the "more senior people" here.

I have attempted to beat people into just discussing if THEY PERSONALLY want it reviewed and why. The resistance to focusing has been quite staggering.
 

Representing the people who have not read it and might perchance be looking for something else to read now that a long running and much loved webcomic has just come to an end, YES, I PERSONALLY would like it reviewed. For argument's sake, one reason being the same reason many people look to reviews, should I invest my time in this or not? Obviously this place is a bit different as it tends to focus on the 'not' end of the entertainment spectrum. So please, tell why I shouldn't read this*.

​(*I did have a crack at the start of it but now I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I shoud go any further or not. Unconvince me!)

​Another reason is that I want to be entertained. Reviews can be (in fact they should always aim to be) a distinct new creation (even if derived from existing material) in their own right. There's already been some very informative (and often funny) material written about Homestuck (and so many other things - often surpassing the thing being reviewed. So, entertain me!)

​I mean, as with anything here, if the reviewer can justify their argument (eg: Homestuck is a bad webcomic) in the review, then it justifies inclusion. Simple as that. It also applies to things I like, even I like something but there's a review in the Wiki that makes a compelling enough case, then I'll 100% support its inclusion.

TL;DR

​Yes, please review Homestuck for inclusion into The Bad Webcomics Wiki.

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#182 [url]

Jan 21 17 11:27 PM

ohitsyou wrote:
@ Essay Mod 
@Smash

Geeze, thats weird.

Its almost like he first starting adding gay people in for padding and pandering, then went full-circle, and started to actually believe what he was doing was progressive.

I wouldn't go that far. The way I view it:
  • Jeph Jacques has LGBT characters in his comic because he wants to have representation
  • Dave Willis has LGBT characters because he likes right-wing people being mad at him
  • Aaron Diaz has LGB - actually he doesn't and mostly draws hypersexualized wank fantasies that multiple prominent women in the scene have called him out for but he's the real enlightened feminist you gaiz
  • And Andrew Hussie puts in LGBT characters because tumblrbux. 

Having the troll romance be ludicrously complicated is something he did because everything in MSPA is super-complicated and Hussie really seems to like Rube Goldberg scenarios as a source of comedy. But then people got into it, so he just kind of kept doing it until he was out of ideas and then suddenly the comic ended and none of it mattered. Even ignoring the LGBT angle, it's really noticeable how when Act 6 started the rom-com shit seemed to define all the new characters and ramp up in importance for all the old ones, while the wacky sci-fi adventure stuff slowly drifted into nothing and didn't even feature into the ending in any real way (not that most of the romance stuff did either; it's notable that there are lots of implied off-screen breakups, but no on-screen ones. Because on-screen breakups would make life hard for people who supported that ship).  

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SmashLampjaw

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#183 [url]

Jan 21 17 11:35 PM

Essay Mod wrote:
And Andrew Hussie puts in LGBT characters because tumblrbux.
Oh, most definitely. I think we are pretty much in the same camp on why Homestuck went off the rails, but I go a step further and take issue with all the sexual crap he did beyond what people even consider normal for the LGBT crowd.

EDIT: Also, while you're here, am I wrong for thinking he changed the rules on how sprites worked in Act 6? I really don't remember them being able to just endlessly absorb everything like that.

.


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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Jan 21 17 11:37 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#184 [url]

Jan 22 17 7:05 AM

ohitsyou wrote:
@ Essay Mod 
  • Jeph Jacques has LGBT characters in his comic because he wants to have representation


Probably originally that way, but as of late, that has mutated into the "Tumblrbux" crowd. Remember, this is "Handstab" we're talking about, and if you read about what's happened recently, his fans control what he does and forces him to get into the increasingly absurd relationships that now plagues the strip.

To me, Jacques came off as the most sympathetic of the four because even though I believe he gets donated enough to count as a full-time job, he does exactly what the fans want. This is probably why he's the only one out of the three webcomics already posted that doesn't have a "massive douche" label attached to the front.

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#185 [url]

Jan 22 17 8:01 AM

SmashLampjaw wrote:
EDIT: Also, while you're here, am I wrong for thinking he changed the rules on how sprites worked in Act 6? I really don't remember them being able to just endlessly absorb everything like that.

 
Here is a picture of John touching a tier one prototyped kernelsprite. You could argue that the rules change happened because they were playing an alpha release and not a beta release, but because any difference between the two releases were never mentioned, I can assume that the rules changed because Andrew stopped giving a fuck.

Last Edited By: Lt Art Major Jan 22 17 10:43 AM. Edited 1 time.

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ohitsyou

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#186 [url]

Jan 22 17 10:06 AM

American Dork wrote:

ohitsyou wrote:
@ Essay Mod 
  • Jeph Jacques has LGBT characters in his comic because he wants to have representation


Probably originally that way, but as of late, that has mutated into the "Tumblrbux" crowd. Remember, this is "Handstab" we're talking about, and if you read about what's happened recently, his fans control what he does and forces him to get into the increasingly absurd relationships that now plagues the strip.

To me, Jacques came off as the most sympathetic of the four because even though I believe he gets donated enough to count as a full-time job, he does exactly what the fans want. This is probably why he's the only one out of the three webcomics already posted that doesn't have a "massive douche" label attached to the front.

Yeah, I can never hate Jacques, mostly becuase even though he is pandering, he never seems mean-spirited about it.

Also, he is venturing out of his comfort zone and trying his new webcomic Alice Grove. While there are problems, at least he is trying something different and I hope for the best for him.

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z

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#187 [url]

Jan 22 17 10:43 AM

Because on-screen breakups would make life hard for people who supported that ship).  

Didn't stop the fanbase from degenerating to calling anyone who didn't ship Dave x Karkat a homophobe (then again, the /co/ thing didn't help either). Shippers in Homestuck for some reason got furious after the ending when Hussie just decided to make a few ships which either he or his friends liked (Hussie is known for pandering to friends, even when it's a bad idea) canon and it sorta spiraled out of control. Also, while we're on the subject of shipping in Homestuck, if there's one thing that really angers me, it's that every ship that has some solid ground and actually happened just didn't really feel like any of the characters really deserved it. The only ship I think was handled well by Homestuck is Rose x Kanaya, which had an arc and everything. And I consider even that dubious due to the retcon stuff, which debalanced a lot of the characters.

Also, yes, I agree that Homestuck eventually started pandering to Tumblr. Not by a lot (I genuinley believe that the "Caucasian" joke was a genuine jab at those that get very defensive about the kid's races at first, but Hussie changed it after people actually started cyberbullying those people), but some things are definetly out there. A good example is the moment where he defined the kids as aracial, but then decided to change the comic when early bits didn't fit. He's changed it back since then. I'm mostly talking about Act 6, which almost entirely consist of romantical drama.

I think the target of Homestuck sorta changed throughout the comic. It started out by trying to appeal to those who liked Problem Sleuth (AKA, those who like Hussie's sassy narration and vague references) (Act 1 to 3), then tried to tell some sort of weird anime story (Act 4 & Act 5 Act 2), which kinda worked and is definetly the best bit, and eventually just collapsed in weird teenage drama (Act 6) which pandered to Tumblr for the obvious reasons.

Excluding Act 5 Act 1, that is the target of Homestuck's audience throughout the comic. Act 5 Act 1 is the exception, being a weird useless mismash that only served to properly flesh out the trolls as a species. It's my least favorite act, for that reason alone. The other reason I dislike it is because it caused Tumblr to notice Homestuck, which is the cause for much of Act 6.

IMO, the best bit of Homestuck is both the Act 3 Intermission and Act 5 Act 2. Those bits get very good. The Intermission is good because it feels like Problem Sleuth, but armed with the knowledge Hussie gained from his progress in Homestuck at the time (what jokes work and what doesn't), whilst also having compelling characters (which is what Problem Sleuth lacked), while Act 5 Act 2 contains a lot of character development and results in an ending that lived up to the hype.

Then again, these are just my two cents.

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#188 [url]

Jan 22 17 11:04 AM

Problem Sleuth I kinda liked at first, because the quasi text adventure layout (I think it was originally based on contributions) made for some potentially silly situations and it had a level of surreality that reminded me of a lot of black and white point-and-click Mac games like Cosmic Osmo and The Manhole. It wasn't very engaging to stay in the story for the long run though. I do remember when Problem Sleuth ended and Homestuck began. I didn't care for it (it seemed to have largely the same problems PS did), and the next time I had heard of Homestuck, it became very different than the relatively obscure comic that I saw the beginning of.

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#189 [url]

Jan 22 17 6:36 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:

Essay Mod wrote:
And Andrew Hussie puts in LGBT characters because tumblrbux.

Oh, most definitely. I think we are pretty much in the same camp on why Homestuck went off the rails, but I go a step further and take issue with all the sexual crap he did beyond what people even consider normal for the LGBT crowd.

EDIT: Also, while you're here, am I wrong for thinking he changed the rules on how sprites worked in Act 6? I really don't remember them being able to just endlessly absorb everything like that.

He kind of veers between mockery and pandering, I'd say. Like, the leprechaun shit was obviously a joke. 

The sprites aren't "technically" changed, since things getting prototyped by accident happened as early as Act 1, but it sure seemed to get a lot easier suddenly. Like Art Major said, John touched a sprite harmlessly early on. But normally when Hussie made a change to the rules, there was at least a handwave (like how Jade's dreamself works differently from all the others, eventually handwaved as "Vriska did it", which doesn't really make much sense but it's something). 

Also, he is venturing out of his comfort zone and trying his new webcomic Alice Grove. While there are problems, at least he is trying something different and I hope for the best for him.

Yeah, I never cared too much for anything Jeph makes, but he's making some effort to mix it up, both with Alice Grove and QC going from "Why does no one care about all the robots" into sci-fi (which helped it get out of the "like Octopus Pie, but bad" box I'd put it in). Once I started writing comics myself, I gained a lot more sympathy for Jacques. 
A good example is the moment where he defined the kids as aracial, but then decided to change the comic when early bits didn't fit.

That was a total clusterfuck of bad PR, which is a recurring issue with Hussie (try his new game, Hiveswap, which may or may not come out this week who knows). I don't think anyone with any opinion on anything thought that was a good move. Jacques wouldn't have tried to pull something like that; even Willis wouldn't. And he didn't just change it, he replaced "white" with garbage characters, like he was trying to make a joke of it and it just annoyed everyone. 
Act 5 Act 2 contains a lot of character development and results in an ending that lived up to the hype

Honestly, [S] Cascade is simply a better ending to Homestuck than the one we actually got. Act 6 resolved exactly zero of the plot threads that weren't answered by Cascade, and introduced a shitload of new dangling threads. (Cascade is also significantly longer than Act 7, while also being a lot more visually dense with information).

The idea of the Guardians being the heroes in the new timeline seemed neat, but it's the single decision from which Homestuck's collapse springs. The shipping may have been uninteresting half-assed fandom pandering, but what the hell else were they going to do? 

Given that he makes it up as he goes along, I think Hussie got as far as starting to write Act 6 before realizing that the Alpha kids slowly uncovering mysteries that were new to them but that the audience already knew would be boring, and either panicked or stopped giving a shit (Act 6 is also when Homestuck's famous 5-a-day schedule became multiple months-long hiatuses). Act 6 should've been like Act 5 Act 1, a highly abbreviated game that established characters and skipped over parts the audience already knew would happen.  Two months of getting to know the new team, then the old kids show up and we're done by 4/13/12 check out my kickstarter for a game, and here's Paradox Space a comic about all this random lore stuff that I totally didn't jam into the main comic because that'd take years and kill all the placing lol.

Paradox Space 100% should have been where all the Dancestors were introduced, and then it could've been hype material for Hiveswap. Instead it's a bunch of random mostly bad Nickelodian Magazine-style comics and also comics by Zack Morrison, who seemed to be the only name artist hired who made any effort to understand the characters and make something good instead of just taking a rejected Gunshow strip idea and drawing Homestuck characters in it. 
image
You're a hack, KC Green!

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SmashLampjaw

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#190 [url]

Jan 22 17 8:20 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:
SmashLampjaw wrote:
EDIT: Also, while you're here, am I wrong for thinking he changed the rules on how sprites worked in Act 6? I really don't remember them being able to just endlessly absorb everything like that.
Here is a picture of John touching a tier one prototyped kernelsprite. You could argue that the rules change happened because they were playing an alpha release and not a beta release, but because any difference between the two releases were never mentioned, I can assume that the rules changed because Andrew stopped giving a fuck.
That's what I thought. I couldn't remember an example of someone touching a sprite before. Thank you.
.
American Dork wrote:
Problem Sleuth I kinda liked at first, because the quasi text adventure layout (I think it was originally based on contributions) made for some potentially silly situations and it had a level of surreality that reminded me of a lot of black and white point-and-click Mac games like Cosmic Osmo and The Manhole. It wasn't very engaging to stay in the story for the long run though.
I got bored of it pretty quickly myself. It came off as too "LOL RANDOM" for me.
.
Essay Mod wrote:
SmashLampjaw wrote:

Essay Mod wrote:
And Andrew Hussie puts in LGBT characters because tumblrbux.

Oh, most definitely. I think we are pretty much in the same camp on why Homestuck went off the rails, but I go a step further and take issue with all the sexual crap he did beyond what people even consider normal for the LGBT crowd.

EDIT: Also, while you're here, am I wrong for thinking he changed the rules on how sprites worked in Act 6? I really don't remember them being able to just endlessly absorb everything like that.
He kind of veers between mockery and pandering, I'd say. Like, the leprechaun shit was obviously a joke.
I'm at a loss why you brought that up when I've said 4 times now I'm talking about the bestial undead incest he did with the sprites of Rose and Dave. Why not deflect into talking about troll romance, since I'm also obviously not talking about that either?
.
Essay Mod wrote:
The sprites aren't "technically" changed, since things getting prototyped by accident happened as early as Act 1, but it sure seemed to get a lot easier suddenly. Like Art Major said, John touched a sprite harmlessly early on.
A simple "yes" would have sufficed.

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z

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#191 [url]

Jan 23 17 6:32 AM

SmashLampjaw wrote:

I'm at a loss why you brought that up when I've said 4 times now I'm talking about the bestial undead incest he did with the sprites of Rose and Dave. Why not deflect into talking about troll romance, since I'm also obviously not talking about that either?
 

Didn't that wind up just not being a thing and Davepeta going after Jade instead? I think the timeline went like this IIRC:
  • Jasprosesprite prototypes Nepeta because she's in love with her for some reason (even though Jaspersprite is the only one that really interacted with Nepeta in the first place, and it was really some kind of 'just friends', not anything romantic.
  • Davesprite accidentally prototypes himself with Nepeta, causing Davepetasprite.
  • After a short confusion about Davepeta's gender (tumblrbux were likely involved), the incest thing comes up, with the main argument for being "no" being our personal objections to incest, while the argument for "yes" boils down to "trolls don't understand the concept of incest (or family for that matter), neither do the animal parts".
  • It resolves with nothing coming of it and Davepeta flying away to the furthest ring, where it kisses Jade (because Hussie loves teasing his fanbase) and wakes her up.
  • [S] Collide happens.
  • Jasprose confirmed alive in snaps, while Davepeta is still unknown.

All in all, I think it wasn't meant as anything serious, and was just brought up... because reasons (my money is on tumblrbux for this and Hussie just wanting to tease his fanbase). Really, Davepetasprite in and of itself is the prime example of why Homestuck started appealing to Tumblr (the return of an Ensemble Darkhorse that had a satisfying conclusion to her arc way earlier, the gender thing, the rampant ship teasing). Hell, I'd go even as far to say that Davepeta is the logical conclusion to all of the pandering.

Still, Davepeta is hardly the worst character in Homestuck. The Dancestors (Alpha Trolls) take that title IMO. They were the first sign of Hussie just giving up. He should just have sticked to the two main ones (Aranea and Meenah), and have the rest remain sidementions á la Doc Scratch's narration of the Troll Ancestors. They definetly shouldn't have had an entire walkaround sequence dedicated to them. That is one of my biggest peeves with Homestuck. All the time that went into the Dancestors could instead have gone, in say, characterizing Caliborn, the best character in Homestuck. Or hell, maybe some more Slick. At least those segments are fun. Not fun is having to invest time in a group of Trolls that become irrelevant on the next page after their introduction.

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SmashLampjaw

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#192 [url]

Jan 28 17 7:05 PM

z wrote:
SmashLampjaw wrote:
I'm at a loss why you brought that up when I've said 4 times now I'm talking about the bestial undead incest he did with the sprites of Rose and Dave. Why not deflect into talking about troll romance, since I'm also obviously not talking about that either? 
Didn't that wind up just not being a thing and Davepeta going after Jade instead?
I actually don't recall if that went anywhere. The point is Essay Mod kept changing the subject to shit I wasn't talking about for reasons that still elude me, given he's not defending the comic. I viewed it as a sign of the social justice cancer(/tumblrbux) having totally consumed Hussie, given that he threw it in like it was as normal as any other sexual proclivity.
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z wrote:
All in all, I think it wasn't meant as anything serious, and was just brought up... because reasons (my money is on tumblrbux for this and Hussie just wanting to tease his fanbase). Really, Davepetasprite in and of itself is the prime example of why Homestuck started appealing to Tumblr (the return of an Ensemble Darkhorse that had a satisfying conclusion to her arc way earlier, the gender thing, the rampant ship teasing). Hell, I'd go even as far to say that Davepeta is the logical conclusion to all of the pandering.
I'm in total agreement with you here.
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z wrote:
Still, Davepeta is hardly the worst character in Homestuck. The Dancestors (Alpha Trolls) take that title IMO. They were the first sign of Hussie just giving up.
I viewed them and the "Nobles" as filler, to be honest. I definitely hated them because (as filler) they prolonged the story by at least a year and a half.
.
z wrote:
All the time that went into the Dancestors could instead have gone, in say, characterizing Caliborn, the best character in Homestuck. Or hell, maybe some more Slick. At least those segments are fun. Not fun is having to invest time in a group of Trolls that become irrelevant on the next page after their introduction.
Agreed, though if he had spent more time on Caliborn it would have made the ending even worse, because there would have been more build-up to a final John-Caliborn showdown that would never happen.

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SmashLampjaw

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#195 [url]

Feb 24 17 11:38 AM

Gonna review this bastard next week. I'm pretty sure I can get the first draft ready by the Ides of March. I'm going to open the draft up to suggestions, because I know a lot of us have strong opinions about this thing and I will be intentionally leaving out material (which someone may make a compelling argument should be included), but I will be writing it with the angle of infuriating his tumblr fanbase.

I'd like to shoot for dropping the review on April 13, for reasons that should be obvious to other people who've read Homestuck.

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Feb 24 17 11:42 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#196 [url]

Feb 24 17 1:53 PM

I have been taking these notes as fast as I possibly could, and it wasn't fast enough. Seeing as you are open to suggestions, I would suggest that you use the video I posted three posts ago for the author biography.

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Drewski

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#197 [url]

Apr 13 17 8:48 AM

Yes Please

Chiming in that I think HS definitely deserves review, for the same reason that a mutilated corpse deserves an autopsy. Sure, that body was once a vibrant, interesting person, and cutting it up further won't be pretty, but maybe we can learn from it.

But is HS even a webcomic? Well, that depends. Is Sluggy Freelance a webcomic? It had animations, interactive games, music, readership-chosen plot points, author inserts, and text strips in the 90s. The flexibility of the medium partly defines what webcomics are; taking advantage of that doesn't remove it from the medium. Hussy pushed on the envelope but none of this stuff was conceptually new to webcomics, even in the days of the first MS Paint Adventures.

So full support here toward a review, and by "full" I mean "a few paragraphs, which you just read".

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SmashLampjaw

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#199 [url]

Apr 13 17 2:11 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:
Smash did not deliver. :(
A bunch of crap all happened at the same time and stalled production. :(

Still working on this. Albeit more slowly. If you want to review something gigantic, I'd (once again) recommend Girl Genius. It's been on the list for ages but I don't think anyone but you and me have read the whole thing.

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kyrtuck

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#200 [url]

Apr 14 17 10:07 AM

ooh, someone else who's read both Sluggy freelance and Homestuck.  Thanks Drewski!


However, the animations in Sluggy tended to be minor little one panel things that popped up now and then.  I only remember a handful of author self-inserts, which have long since ceased.  And I sure don't remember Sluggy having any music...?

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