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Shan

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#141 [url]

Dec 29 16 2:34 AM

Lt Art Major wrote:

Shan wrote:
I would recommend always be working on a second review in parallel with investigating this one as it's a lot of stuff to potentially look at

If you are talking to me, I of course will be working on other projects on this site, as well as off while reviewing this comic.
there's always the chance you might find it's too good to qualify - ergo all that time for no review.

I just finished notes for Act 1 and I found at least three plot holes. I don't know if this is BWW worthy, but this is a bad webcomic.

This has gotten to this point before but then not gotten any further for whatever reason. Sounds like you've done some stuff which actually takes things a step further than that so I guess just do it and stick it in your sandbox

http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/User:Lt._Art_Major

for people in the position to make a comment on whether it's the right track for this or not can say it works for here or not. So like what you did with IDK. You said you were going to do it and then you came back having done it.

​I agree with the above about the approach of doing Act 1 - maybe there's the argument for saying if Act 1 is so impenetrable/difficult or even just plain bad in your estimation, even if there's 10, 100 or whatever number of acts to go, if Act 1 is going to put a reader off sufficiently from going any further, well, that's a big problem. Doesn't matter how good the rest is if people aren't inclined to go any further because the opening puts you off sufficiently, I guess.
 

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Shan

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#142 [url]

Dec 29 16 3:56 AM

OK, I just went and re-read the whole forum on this topic which has been going for something like 20 months now.

I think we have all the elements we need to come to a decision about what to do next, someone just needs to pull the trigger on it. Fine, I'll do that and put all of that from the forums together.

A lot of people have said go ahead and do it or least that there's no reason not to if it's warranted. More than any other case I can think of. That includes two of the mods.

Lt. Art Major said he wants to do it, has started making notes, in fact.

So the answer is YES, go ahead. There, it's unambiguously been said now.

Sandboxing whatever you do for this one instead of posting to the Wiki itself seems prudent, however (I don't recall noting if you did that for IDK.) So put it here, so we can see what it would look like on the Wiki itself.

http://badwebcomicswiki.shoutwiki.com/wiki/User:Lt._Art_Major

Take whatever approach you feel is appropriate as it's not going to the main Wiki immediately.

The only recommendation I could possibly add is have a re-read of the forum posts up to here, there might be some worthwhile ideas about what you want to do and how you want to do it in there.

I'm personally neutral on this, I have no opinion at all about it past the point of, as a theoretical potential new reader, is there anything for argument's sake to make me even think of starting on this? As it currently stands, I take one look at the size of it and that put together with some of the forum posts just makes me turn around and decide to not even think about starting.

Maybe that's something worth commenting on, is it something in your opinion that someone having heard of it for the first time should invest any time in or should they walk away now? Up to you as to what you think of whether that merits any sort of a mention or not.

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Shan

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#144 [url]

Dec 29 16 12:07 PM

I'm not seeing anything that had hasn't already happened before in this forum topic that's closing on two years old now. In fact until this discussion started up again, I thought possibly you were doing it all this time. This looks like another round of circling the topic but not quite spitting it out. So, I really wanted to be sure this time that everyone was on the same page because it all really did look like last time.

Anyway, I don't have the authority to say go ahead, I'm just putting in no unambiguous terms what I think has already been said which was to go ahead. It's definitely a yes then?

OK, good, well that's settled then.

Last Edited By: Shan Dec 29 16 8:44 PM. Edited 1 time.

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SmashLampjaw

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#145 [url]

Dec 29 16 12:34 PM

What is your opinion on if Homestuck should be reviewed? Not your gist of what everyone else was voting, but your personal belief on Homestuck based on Homestuck rather than our discussion of Homestuck? It won't be the end of the world if your opinion doesn't jive with anyone else, whether you're concerned about disagreeing with most of us that it crashed and burned or if you don't want to openly hate a webcomic other people love.

If you don't have a personal opinion, go try and read the thing to form one.

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#146 [url]

Dec 29 16 1:17 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:

Shan wrote:
Lt. Art Major said he wants to do it, has started making notes, in fact.

So have I and a couple other people. Why are you telling him to go ahead?

Oh, I was not supposed to write a test review of Act 1? That's fine. I will take it off the sand box, but on my desktop just in case.

If you would wish to know why I think this webcomic needs to be on the wiki, it's because it's just not a good story. Yes, it is grand and epic and cosmic scale, but there aren't any of the little things that make a story good. Every character has maybe one or two traits with quirks added to give the illusion of depth. Most of these characters remain unchanged by the end and all issues brought up by the characters remain unsolved. The story is stuffed to the brim with things that have no impact on the plot, even when we are told that it's still relevant with him saying, "Do you remember this, that didn't go anywhere." And then it's forgotten again. The story is inconclusive, ending with going back in time and =10ptresurrecting a sociopath to devise a thrilling plan that is followed to the word and being acted out flawlessly. In spite of coming out over the course of two years the ending feels rushed. Everything that happens either has nothing to do with anything, or to put the ending in a position to work. Things being set up just so the finale can look cool was a common theme throughout the story, but it was never this railroaded. In the end, the characters learn nothing, gain nothing, and achieve nothing but an idyllic world to rule and become the monsters they had been fighting the whole time. That is a real stab in the chest after reading for eight thousand pages.



Edit: I forgot to mention, somehow, the things I take the biggest issue with. First, for as smart as it wants to be, it is juvenile. For as vast as it wants to be, it blunders to amature mistakes such as show don't tell.

Edit 2: I'm dyslexic.

Last Edited By: Lt Art Major Jan 18 17 1:34 PM. Edited 4 times.

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#147 [url]

Dec 29 16 1:18 PM

SmashLampjaw wrote:
If you don't have a personal opinion, go try and read the thing to form one.

It's gonna be a long weekend, isn't it... *starts reading*

EDIT: ALRIGHT I'M ON THE THIRD ACT OMG I AM TIRED AND YET I HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO GO.

But I don't think it deserves a review so far. At least not, a negative review.

Let's see what happens next.

Last Edited By: UglyHyena Dec 29 16 6:18 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#148 [url]

Dec 29 16 8:30 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:

SmashLampjaw wrote:

Shan wrote:
Lt. Art Major said he wants to do it, has started making notes, in fact.

So have I and a couple other people. Why are you telling him to go ahead?

Oh, I was not supposed to write a test review of Act 1? That's fine. I will take it off the sand box, but on my desktop just in case.

If you would wish to know why I think this webcomic needs to be on the wiki, it's because it's just not a good story. Yes, it is grand and epic and cosmic scale, but there aren't any of the little things that make a story good. Every character has maybe one or two traits with quirks added to give the illusion of depth. Most of these characters remain unchanged by the end and all issues brought up by the characters remain unsolved. The story is stuffed to the brim with things that have no impact on the plot, even when we are told that it's still revelant with im saying, "Do you remember this, that didn't go anywhere." And then it's forgotten again. The story is inconclusive, ending with going back in time and ressurecting a sociopath to devise a thrilling plan that is followed to the word and being acted out flawlessly. In spite of coming out over the course of two years the ending feels rushed. Everything that happens either has nothing to do with anything, or to put the ending in a position to work. Things being set up just so the finale can look cool was a common theme throughout the story, but it was never this railroaded. In the end, the characters learn nothing, gain nothing, and achieve nothing but an idyllic world to rule and become the mosters they had been fighting the whole time. That is a real stab in the chest after reading for eight thousand pages.



Edit: I forgot to mention, somehow, the things I take the biggest issue with. First, for as smart as it wants to be, it is juvenile. For as vast as it wants to be, it blunders to amature mistakes such as show don't tell.

Oh no no no no no, that's the exact opposite of what I was going for. Also, you can put whatever you want in your sandbox (well, just about - nothing that gets the Feds kicking our doors down for starters). That's why it's a sandbox - to try stuff out, make your case, let us see what your argument is, that sort of thing.

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SmashLampjaw

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#149 [url]

Dec 29 16 9:09 PM

UglyHyena wrote:
ALRIGHT I'M ON THE THIRD ACT OMG I AM TIRED AND YET I HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO GO.

But I don't think it deserves a review so far. At least not, a negative review.

Let's see what happens next.
My opinion was the downfall came with the introduction of the second set of humans in... Act 5? I can no longer recall the exact chronology. The warning signs the comic was in trouble were during a transition period I won't spoil for you.

Shan wrote:
Oh no no no no no, that's the exact opposite of what I was going for. Also, you can put whatever you want in your sandbox (well, just about - nothing that gets the Feds kicking our doors down for starters). That's why it's a sandbox - to try stuff out, make your case, let us see what your argument is, that sort of thing.
Yes, he can do that, but I wouldn't encourage him to waste time on a review someone else may be tasked with writing, particularly since people are still weighing in on if it should be reviewed in the first place. Homestuck has been a contentious topic across two threads and we don't even have one of the detractors as a member anymore to make his case.

Have you, Shan, formed a personal opinion on if it should be reviewed based on you looking at the comic itself yet or not? I would really like for you to participate in the main discussion, instead of the planning discussion, meta discussion, discussion about discussing things, rules discussions, or any off-topic discussion.

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Shan

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#150 [url]

Dec 29 16 10:30 PM

There's been more people who've said go ahead for this review than any other one I've seen since I arrived here even if there's less agreement as to when it had its downfall. So, I thought what I think either way is immaterial. I was just wanting to point that out before we had another round of going into a holding pattern.

Having said that, from the point of view of a brand new reader - which I am (I'd never even heard of this before I came here - actually, I'd heard of like four webcomics ever), I'm currently balking at even reading more of much shorter and much more linear webcomics - even the ones by people I actually know. I mean, the time is just not there, for starters plus I'm feeling just that bit worn out.

So, one look at the fact this is a 10,000 pages or whatever behemoth with some sort of Rube Goldberg contraption mixed in is just wearing me out just thinking about it. I mean even just trying to work out where to start is leaving me exhausted.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?viewpage=new

http://mspaintadventures.com/scraps2/homestuckKS.html

So, to be honest, I'd rather just turn around and walk right back out again.

I agree with what Lt. Art Major is saying as a general concept, it doesn't matter how good your later stuff is, you shouldn't have to slog through a lot of poor to mediocre stuff to get there. Is that what's happening here? Opinions seem to vary. I get opinions are subjective.

But sure, I'll give it a go if someone can make clear:

a) Where do I start? Because I really don't want to do any of this more than once.
b) How do I read it? Can it just be done one page to the next? I really don't want to have to be through a technical instruction manual to do even just that.

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Shan

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#151 [url]

Dec 29 16 11:29 PM

Oh, looks like I misread the first post on this page as being April 2015 when I went back when it's in fact April 15th 2016.

Well, that's embarrassing. In my defence, looking back at it all and rereading it, it sure felt like two years.

Found what I think was the start but felt my will to live draining very quickly. Maybe it's because I was never a huge fan of those games and also, perhaps this is just not for me? I haven't gotten anywhere near far enough to give a fair opinion yet.

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Mewsical

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#152 [url]

Dec 30 16 6:06 AM

I think it's deserving of a review.  The whole thing is a hobbled mess that confused the hell out of me with its numerous characters and concepts that I had to stop reading both times I tried.  It certainly didn't help I was reading it as it updated so I forgot things over time... it might be easier with its massive archive now but a comic shouldn't require a huge archive to skim through for it to be understandable.

Having 10k pages isn't what's preventing me from trying again however, since most pages are the equivalent of a single panel in another comic.  No, it's the massive amounts of dialogue that comes with some of the pages as characters talk to each other, most of which is irrelevant chatter.  I can plow through Problem Sleuth with its 1600+ pages in a couple hours because there isn't much dialogue.  Maybe Homestuck has a really good story in there, but it's everything that comes with it that brings it down to review-worthy, in my opinion.

I'm not sure why some people think this review needs to be some elaborate project done by multiple people.  Yes, there's a lot to go through and remember, but it's not like it hasn't been done before.

Last Edited By: Mewsical Dec 30 16 6:15 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#154 [url]

Dec 30 16 10:07 AM

Lt Art Major wrote:
Damn you're quick and or dedicated. That's where I'm at at the moment. Are you sure you're reading the whole thing?

I'm absolutely 100% positive that I am reading the whole thing. I even doble-check as I go to see if I am missing something, some link or page.

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Shan

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#155 [url]

Dec 30 16 4:36 PM

I've actually really enjoyed reading the articles about Homestuck like the Webcomics Overlook ones especially but the thought of actually reading the thing itself at the moment seems far too daunting. I'm getting flashbacks to the whole experience of reading House of Leaves and as much as I enjoyed reading that, it was a lot of hard work. Given the size of this and the fact its using at least a quasi-interactive component, just reading about it in summarised form is exhausting enough for me right now. It just seems easier to avoid getting entangled in this one right now. There's the other thing as well, in the same sense that we could review several other things in this time as someone brought up much earlier in this thread, I could probably read who knows how many other stories in the same time.

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Shan

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#157 [url]

Dec 31 16 5:47 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:

Shan wrote:
I'm getting flashbacks

image

Cool story. Have you read anything in the webcomic at all?

Did you just cool story bro me?

​I went as far as the getting the arms out of the chest and then picking up some nails at which point the arms were dropped. I think the next page before I stopped made a mention of someone doing a dump on someone's desk? I hadn't left the room yet.

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z

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#158 [url]

Jan 18 17 12:54 PM

Remember me? I was the guy that tried to defend troll reproduction... yeah not my proudest reply... moving on.

Since I've seen this thread, I've been thinking a lot on Homestuck and why one might dislike it. And after a lot of thinking, I've made a decision. Homestuck has issues. Definetly. You will find that even the fans criticize a lot of stuff, such as the Alpha Kids (which is Act 6) and the long hiatuses didn't help either. But in the end, the decision is still on this:

Is Homestuck bad enough to warrant a review?

I'd personally say, NO. I've seen some of the shit that gets reviewed on this site (ranging from the 'it's just poor' to 'why do you have internet access' ones), and I think Homestuck just isn't terrible enough to get reviewed. If anything, it's mediocre. It's probably the most mediocre webcomic out there. It's characters and worldbuilding are definetly good, but in the end it becomes very clear that Hussie just wants it to be done with and churned out the remnants, reducing it's quality.

The worst part about Homestuck is definetley it's fanbase when you get down to it, with all the fantrolls and other shit that it has churned out. And even those fans have matured over the years or moved on to the next fad (I think it was FNAF?). The only real big communities on Homestuck that are left are /r/homestuck (reddit) and omegaupdate (since the official fora shut down).

Also, to the other fans (and don't lie to yourself, you are fans, it's glaringly obvious stop embarassing yourself): You don't need to dedicate much to review Homestuck. I'd say one person could hypothetically do it. Maybe a beta reader for mistakes in the story, but really, anyone could do it. No need to get ridiculous here.

And as a final note: http://mspfanventures.com/?s=14113&p=1 . Cool and New Webcomic. If that is worthy of a review (and don't judge it until you have caught up, it only really kicks into gear with Rose's introduction. It's not very long. You can read it in say an hour, not counting the videos), then I'd say Homestuck is worthy of one too.

@Shan You've barely even touched the content. That was early humor. It changes later on into something else. Really, Homestuck shouldn't be judged by Act 1. It had a bad start. Act 2 is OK, the Intermission and Act 4 are good, Act 5 is the best (and I mean Act 5 Act 2, not Act 5 Act 1, that one is why Homestuck exploded) and Act 6... sorta tries to be as good as Act 5 was, but sorta fails. Act 7... is an ending.

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Shan

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#159 [url]

Jan 18 17 1:07 PM

Yes, I remember you.

I wasn't being critical of the content of Act I per se, I was looking at it from the point of view of a new reader thinking this is a very intimidating mountain to climb, so why even start?

However, I do find the idea of it not getting good until as late as Act 4 alarming. If it takes that long, I can see that alone as grounds for a review in the general sense that if you have to take that long to hook readers, maybe that's too late.

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#160 [url]

Jan 18 17 2:26 PM

I really gotta go back to reading. I am already past the intermission I think, but that is one of my problems: I binge read at lightspeed but if I don't finish it in one sitting it ends up sitting there collecting dust for god knows how long.

I honestly am really curious about what the fuss was all about. So far I think it is pretty ok, but not worthy of fantrolls and cosplay? Maybe Act 5 will show me otherwise.

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