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#161 [url]

Jan 18 17 2:27 PM

z wrote:
Remember me? I was the guy that tried to defend troll reproduction... yeah not my proudest reply... moving on.

Oh, hello! Remember me? I was the guy who made an account just because of this thread.

Since I've seen this thread, I've been thinking a lot on Homestuck and why one might dislike it. And after a lot of thinking, I've made a decision. Homestuck has issues. Definetly. You will find that even the fans criticize a lot of stuff, such as the Alpha Kids (which is Act 6) and the long hiatuses didn't help either. But in the end, the decision is still on this:

OK then. I think the reason homestuck is bad is because it's not a very good story. Why everyone else has to make its fatal flaw out to be an enigma, I have no idea. 
Is Homestuck bad enough to warrant a review?

That is what we are discussing. I think yes, Smash thinks yes, but clearly doesn't want to do it himself, and everyone else either doesn't care or hasn't read it. 
I'd personally say, NO. I've seen some of the shit that gets reviewed on this site (ranging from the 'it's just poor' to 'why do you have internet access' ones), and I think Homestuck just isn't terrible enough to get reviewed. If anything, it's mediocre. It's probably the most mediocre webcomic out there. It's characters and worldbuilding are definetly good, but in the end it becomes very clear that Hussie just wants it to be done with and churned out the remnants, reducing it's quality.

If the comic is mediocre, then the question therein lies, could it be better? If a webcomic can clearly be better than produced, then it is an awful webcomic in my book. The author of homestuck clearly had the ability to make a good webcomic, but didn't. 
The worst part about Homestuck is definetley it's fanbase when you get down to it, with all the fantrolls and other shit that it has churned out. And even those fans have matured over the years or moved on to the next fad (I think it was FNAF?). The only real big communities on Homestuck that are left are /r/homestuck (reddit) and omegaupdate (since the official fora shut down).

No it isn't. Also, saying that homestuck fans matured into fnaf fans is like saying my home depot grew financially into a walgreens. 
Also, to the other fans (and don't lie to yourself, you are fans, it's glaringly obvious stop embarassing yourself): You don't need to dedicate much to review Homestuck. I'd say one person could hypothetically do it. Maybe a beta reader for mistakes in the story, but really, anyone could do it. No need to get ridiculous here.

Do you want it to be reviewed or not? How do you get away with yourself with saying that reviewing homestuck is a tall order, but then say, "no need to get ridiculous here," as if the reviewer was going to write a great wall of text about it? I can't see this review being any longer or any more complex than the other reviews.
And as a final note: http://mspfanventures.com/?s=14113&p=1 . Cool and New Webcomic. If that is worthy of a review (and don't judge it until you have caught up, it only really kicks into gear with Rose's introduction. It's not very long. You can read it in say an hour, not counting the videos), then I'd say Homestuck is worthy of one too.

What, why? Why is this the bar for if homestuck should be reviewed? The credentials for if homestuck should be reviewed should lie on homestuck itself, not some other webcomic. By the way, that comic is worthy of a review, but it won't get a review, because no one cares. 
@Shan You've barely even touched the content. That was early humor. It changes later on into something else. Really, Homestuck shouldn't be judged by Act 1. It had a bad start. Act 2 is OK, the Intermission and Act 4 are good, Act 5 is the best (and I mean Act 5 Act 2, not Act 5 Act 1, that one is why Homestuck exploded) and Act 6... sorta tries to be as good as Act 5 was, but sorta fails. Act 7... is an ending.

I have a rule when it comes to any kind of story in any kind of medium: If the first episode or act is bad, the whole thing is bad. Good stories are good from the start and get better as you go.

My point is that these statements are condescending. This is the third post in this thread to boil down to, "Be bold, brave one, for ye will surely die." Why does this review need to reach some level of standards that provoke some form of intellectual intrigue?

Last Edited By: Lt Art Major Jan 18 17 2:37 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#163 [url]

Jan 18 17 3:29 PM

"I have a rule when it comes to any kind of story in any kind of medium: If the first episode or act is bad, the whole thing is bad. Good stories are good from the start and get better as you go."

If you do end up taking on Everest, you might as well consider Stand Still, Stay Silent one day in that case as that should be a piece of cake in comparison.

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#164 [url]

Jan 18 17 3:31 PM

ohitsyou wrote:
@Lt Art Major

Wait, youre not going to do the review? 

I'm confused, as you seemed to have a good grasp of Homestuck and its problems. 

I'm probably close to the top of the list for being the reviewer, but I am in the middle of a different review at the moment, and I'm not done taking notes. Also, it hasn't even been greenlit for a review.

Last Edited By: Lt Art Major Jan 18 17 3:35 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Shan

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#165 [url]

Jan 18 17 3:37 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:

ohitsyou wrote:
@Lt Art Major

Wait, youre not going to do the review? 

I'm confused, as you seemed to have a good grasp of Homestuck and its problems. 

I'm probably close to the top of the list for being the reviewer, but I am in the middle of a diffrent review at the moment, and I'm not done taking notes. Also, it hasn't even been greenlit for a review.

No rush, we've got the rest of forever for this to be done. The way I see this place in terms of whether something is "bad" or not is that all criticism is subjective. It really does boil down to how compelling a case you can make for a webcomic to be reviewed and then how good the argument is in the review. Homestuck included.

​Having said that, some of the stuff reviewed here is the worst of the worst ... in my opinion but don't ask me to quantify it past that point because I suspect I'd fail.

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z

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#167 [url]

Jan 19 17 3:03 AM

Lt Art Major wrote:
Oh, hello! Remember me? I was the guy who made an account just because of this thread.

 

Point taken. That opening wasn't very good in retrospect. Let's drop it and move on.
OK then. I think the reason homestuck is bad is because it's not a very good story. Why everyone else has to make its fatal flaw out to be an enigma, I have no idea.

To each their own. I personally like the story, but I can see why it doesn't appeal to some people.
That is what we are discussing. I think yes, Smash thinks yes, but clearly doesn't want to do it himself, and everyone else either doesn't care or hasn't read it.

Good we're on the same page here.
If the comic is mediocre, then the question therein lies, could it be better? If a webcomic can clearly be better than produced, then it is an awful webcomic in my book. The author of homestuck clearly had the ability to make a good webcomic, but didn't.

I guess we disagree on that type of judgement. Things aren't always so black and white when it comes to things like this.
No it isn't. Also, saying that homestuck fans matured into fnaf fans is like saying my home depot grew financially into a walgreens.

I think you misinterpreted my statement. I said that the immature fans either matured OR moved on to the next fad. Not that the immature fans 'matured into fnaf fans'.
Do you want it to be reviewed or not? How do you get away with yourself with saying that reviewing homestuck is a tall order, but then say, "no need to get ridiculous here," as if the reviewer was going to write a great wall of text about it? I can't see this review being any longer or any more complex than the other reviews.

I personally say that Homestuck should not be reviewed. Not because it's too big, but just because I don't think it meets the standards of a shitty comic. It was more towards the 'fans' that wanted to have like six people working on it or dedicate entire subfora to it. The 'no need to get ridiculous part' was towards the 'fans', not the review itself. Go all out if you think a review is needed. Get as ridiculous as you want with it. Or not. I'm not the one to decide.
What, why? Why is this the bar for if homestuck should be reviewed? The credentials for if homestuck should be reviewed should lie on homestuck itself, not some other webcomic. By the way, that comic is worthy of a review, but it won't get a review, because no one cares.

How many pages did you read? I'd say this comes very close to the quality of Homestuck, henceforth I'd say that if this is bad, then Homestuck could be considered bad as well. And no, Cool and New Webcomic is not worthy of a review. At least read up to the point where it is at now. If you think it's bad, then I wonder what your thoughts are on Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff, since most of the humor in Cool and New Webcomic definetly falls in that category.
I have a rule when it comes to any kind of story in any kind of medium: If the first episode or act is bad, the whole thing is bad. Good stories are good from the start and get better as you go.

I consider that to be an extremely short-sighted view. Don't judge something until you've read at least a good portion of it. Homestuck's quality raises very quickly after Act 1.
My point is that these statements are condescending.

I apologize if that is how they came across. It was not intended to be that way.
This is the third post in this thread to boil down to, "Be bold, brave one, for ye will surely die."

WHAT? No. That... is not how I consider it to be at least. If it came across like that, it wasn't intentional. If you want to review Homestuck, be my guest. I just don't think it deserves a review. I love reading criticism of things I personally like. I like discussing things with people that hate that thing. Why? Because it allows me to try and understand why they hate that thing and maybe it may help me form a better opinion on said thing.
Why does this review need to reach some level of standards that provoke some form of intellectual intrigue?

I dunno. To me it doesn't have to.

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Shan

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#168 [url]

Jan 19 17 3:10 AM

It varies. I've seen someone tell me that Dresden Codak shouldn't be in here (like I had any control over that) and other people tell me it certainly does. I haven't actually read it so I don't have an opinion. I've also had defences mounted in favour of Dumbing of Age. Now that, I've seen the infamous car/shotgun chase and after that, agree there's some validity at least in the argument that maybe, just maybe it's a bit suspect.

So with this, I've not yet really formulated much of an opinion yet myself of the actual content but I do like reading reviews and summaries of it (and the music for the end credits are the bomb) but if someone can make a compelling critical argument for it, well that in itself is a new piece of art in a way. I mean, I can and I have been entertained by critical and negative review of stuff generally (not just webcomics) that I like too, If the argument's good, well made, and as an added bonus, entertaining, I'm all for it with just about anything.

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ohitsyou

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#169 [url]

Jan 19 17 8:15 AM

@Lt Art Major

I have a rule when it comes to any kind of story in any kind of medium: If the first episode or act is bad, the whole thing is bad. Good stories are good from the start and get better as you go.


I don't agree completely with this, but I do agree with parts of this statement.

I never really liked it when people say "it gets better" as the excuse. I once said that I didnt like Game of Thrones and said that I watched 2-3 episodes of it. Everyone then said that I had to watch an entire season before I can judge GOT. If I didnt like the first two hours of it, what makes them think I would like it more by forcing myself to watch more of it?

For another example, there is a JRPG game called Persona 4 that is somewhat popular (it gets good reviews) but for the life of me, I dont understand why; everyone about the game is the definition of mediocrity. Even worse, to actually start playing the game, you have to go through umpteeth cutscenes in order to play the game. Do you know how long it takes? 3 hours. 3 butt-fucking hours to play a goddamn game with cutscenes you cant even skip. And these are the same people that bitch about Metal Gear Solid having long cutscenes. Say what you want about Metal Gear, at least you could skip those cutscenes and they were at least engaging. The first three hours in Persona 4 cutscenes? Repeating the same information over and over again, while trying to balance High School life and-the same fuckers who complain about JRPG being about mopey angsty teenagers, which even I'm annoyed by, love this game about mopey angsty teenagers! It makes no sense!

I guess my point is that I get a sinking suspicion that people Stockholm Syndrome themselves into liking things like Homestuck. You just dont want to admit you wasted times, so you convince yourself that your time wasted was valuable and meaningful.

Just my two cents.

 

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#170 [url]

Jan 19 17 10:06 AM

ohitsyou wrote:
I never really liked it when people say "it gets better" as the excuse. I once said that I didnt like Game of Thrones and said that I watched 2-3 episodes of it. Everyone then said that I had to watch an entire season before I can judge GOT. If I didnt like the first two hours of it, what makes them think I would like it more by forcing myself to watch more of it?

I'm trying to think of some example of something I like that I had a hard time getting into buuuut my mind is drawing blank...

I think the point is that for the "it gets better" excuse to work, the show/comic/whatever has to already be somewhat good or at least decent, or at least have an interesting hook to it. Something that makes you wanna keep watching because you want to, and not because your friend's brother's twice-removed cousin told you it gets better. That's the storywriters' job, to hint you that it gets better!

I think the equivalent opposite is when a story starts awesome but it drops the ball near the end. Would you call that good? I personally dunno, heck, I loved Evangelion until it the very last episodes when they ran out of budget and screwed everything. A pity because otherwise I would totally list the series among my favourites, but after that it was "well it did things well in some parts". It is really something to think about, imho.

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Shan

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#171 [url]

Jan 19 17 12:50 PM

UglyHyena wrote:

ohitsyou wrote:
I never really liked it when people say "it gets better" as the excuse. I once said that I didnt like Game of Thrones and said that I watched 2-3 episodes of it. Everyone then said that I had to watch an entire season before I can judge GOT. If I didnt like the first two hours of it, what makes them think I would like it more by forcing myself to watch more of it?


I'm trying to think of some example of something I like that I had a hard time getting into buuuut my mind is drawing blank...

I think the point is that for the "it gets better" excuse to work, the show/comic/whatever has to already be somewhat good or at least decent, or at least have an interesting hook to it. Something that makes you wanna keep watching because you want to, and not because your friend's brother's twice-removed cousin told you it gets better. That's the storywriters' job, to hint you that it gets better!

I think the equivalent opposite is when a story starts awesome but it drops the ball near the end. Would you call that good? I personally dunno, heck, I loved Evangelion until it the very last episodes when they ran out of budget and screwed everything. A pity because otherwise I would totally list the series among my favourites, but after that it was "well it did things well in some parts". It is really something to think about, imho.

I grew to appreciate the ending of Evangelion more over time - and then of course we got End of Evangelion after which we got Rebuild of Evangelion (which is a sequel, not a remake - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.)

All in all, I have no complaints.

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SmashLampjaw

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#172 [url]

Jan 20 17 3:59 PM

Lt Art Major wrote:
Is Homestuck bad enough to warrant a review?
That is what we are discussing. I think yes, Smash thinks yes, but clearly doesn't want to do it himself, and everyone else either doesn't care or hasn't read it.
I volunteered to review it months ago. The only reason I haven't was it never seemed to me like a clear decision on if it should happen, and there's been very limited participation from the... I guess you'd call them the "more senior people" here.

I have attempted to beat people into just discussing if THEY PERSONALLY want it reviewed and why. The resistance to focusing has been quite staggering.
.
Lt Art Major wrote:
I have a rule when it comes to any kind of story in any kind of medium: If the first episode or act is bad, the whole thing is bad. Good stories are good from the start and get better as you go.
With TV shows I will almost always give them 2 episodes. If something still sucks two episodes in, it's probably not going to improve.

In the television medium (whether literally on TV or just a serial published a season at a time), the first episode may be the series pilot. That means it was written months apart from the rest of the season and with a very limited budget. I mention the budget because it affects how many takes a scene can be shot in, so you may not get the best acting an actor can actually give the director. You can sometimes see drastic improvements between the first and second episode's writing because the team had feedback they incorporated into writing/rewriting the rest of the season. There are a few shows I've seen that fall into this, but I'm blanking on an example (besides The Invisible Man, which is from a decade or two ago so I don't know how helpful it is).

First episodes for complex series also have a lot of set-up to do, which can drag on, but make the entire rest of the season better. Dark Matter is a perfect example of this. It has a sluggish first episode because it just has so much to set up, the second episode is good (it still wraps up some of the introduction), and completely takes off into greatness from the last act of episode 2. Even the first episode of season 2 (where the context of the show has changed drastically) is fast-paced and enjoyable because S1E1 dealt with most of the series' heavy lifting.

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Jan 20 17 5:00 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#173 [url]

Jan 20 17 8:54 PM

Homestuck definitely deserves a review if that's the question. The only hangup is that it's not quite a webcomic in the traditional sense, it's all one panel-a-day, and many of those are Flash-based. It's not untouchable by any means, though.

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#174 [url]

Jan 21 17 12:56 AM

I feel like a review of Homestuck would have to be done differently than the normal format. It went from terrible to decent to good to great to decent to bad to terrible to bad enough to lead to a fandom revolt and force an epilogue. One of the biggest fans of the comic, BladeKind Eyewear, wrote essays upon essays about it, and when the finale hit it sucked so bad that he literally became physically ill with despair (http://bladekindeyewear.tumblr.com/post/145090131994/quick-update-on-where-im-at-tldr-still).



I mean, look at this shit. (Or at least from 10:30 for about ten minutes, as he starts to realize the animation's about to end and literally nothing is explained and slowly realizes that all the time he spent theorizing was a waste of his youth)

Homestuck wasn't just a bad comic, it was bad enough to do real damage to its fans. It's not just one guy, check the chat in the big Homestuck fan stream watching the end together.


(Skip to 24:00 or so, watch the chat)

The ending was Evangelion-level bad. There's never been anything like this in webcomics before. There may never be anything like this in webcomics again. Like RPG World, it literally ends right before the final battle, but it was actually the intended ending! Homestuck went from one of the most popular webcomics of all time to universal hatred in truly record time.

Homestuck doesn't need a review, it needs a fucking autopsy.

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SmashLampjaw

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#175 [url]

Jan 21 17 1:48 AM

For those of you who have not read Homestuck, Essay Mod is referring to Andrew Hussie's decision to have all of the build-up in his story anti-climax in a video where 1) none of the characters foreshadowed to fight actually did so, 2) the most important battle doesn't even get resolved, 3) and none of the characters get an ending. Due to complaints, Hussie put out a later video to show what happened to the characters after the ending video, which was a collection of still images that showed they were friends and ended with a gay-bestial wedding. Surprisingly he left out any indication of if the undead chimera siblings ever got around to banging each other. Because I'm sure we all wanted to know that for great (social) justice.

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Jan 21 17 1:51 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#176 [url]

Jan 21 17 7:29 AM

To me, Homestuck is almost the perfect webcomic to review. I haven't read it enough to know what kind of labels at the top it might get, but the first is "massive douche" with maybe the "Gross" label as well. It's got everything--dubious art, writing meant to push agendas, insane fan base, the tendency to treat said fan base like shit, changing tone and quality, huge world-building and intrigue that never ever pays off. The challenge is to find someone that can go through it and write a good review...

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#178 [url]

Jan 21 17 11:01 AM

ohitsyou wrote:

American Dork wrote:
 writing meant to push agendas, 

What do you mean by that?

There are gay people in it. 

Actually, that's a little overly snarky. Sometime around Act 6, Hussie clearly realized he had two months of story left and that his comic made him shittons of money, so he streeeeeetched out the relationship shit as long as he could, and made everyone bisexual so that he could have more filler romantic pairings to plod through, none of which go anywhere. It's a weird thing were he wanted to be able to go Homestuck diverse and representative but also didn't want to put any effort into same (see also: his claim that the art style meant that the characters could be any race you wanted them to be, even though the kids were repeatedly referred to as white). Sometimes it came off like he held his liberal readership in contempt even though he wanted to make money by appealing to them, leading to some, um, missteps. 

image
Most of Act 6 is filler shit that the audience put up with because Homestuck had paid off on its foreshadowing before and thus everyone trusted that things like "Mituna became retarded after making a great mysterious sacrifice" and "Meulin is being mind-controlled by her evil boyfriend" and "there are two Vriska's now" and "Tavros getting a lot of screen time", and "Rose from the original timeline is revived and fused wih a cat" and would pay off. You'll notice that the ending does not include any of pre-Retcon Vriska, Mituna, Meulin, Her Boyfriend, Tavros, Jasprose, etc (or, inexplicably, main character Terezi). Nor is Aranea even mentioned after dying, even though she's presumably in the afterlife which is full of ghosts that she was mind-controlling to their destruction and who might be mad about that. Nor does "You don't need him" get explained or the fact that Terezi's plan hinged on John having a wallet he ended up not having become relevant. All the relationship stuff, and the character-building therewith, is more of the same. John flirting with Terezi? Kills time. Dave is bisexual? Kills time. Rose was supposed to "play the rain"? Let's kill time actually explaining that there'll be no payoff to that plot thread. Nor was "the bad guy they just killed is immortal" get explained. All the relationship stuff is similarly a filler waste of time (even the straight ones)

Most people went into the final animation expecting a major plot twist to happen, since there was so much reason to expect one, because there was all this foreshadowing on the floor and they hadn't even met the bad guy yet. In fact, they never do, 

And not just the plot foreshadowing. There is no point in the entire comic where all four protagonist kids talk to each other in person. They teased and teased and teased and never delivered. 

Bluh, this comic actually pisses me off to think about. 

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SmashLampjaw

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#179 [url]

Jan 21 17 10:04 PM

Essay Mod wrote:
There are gay people in it. 
If he'd stopped at gay people I wouldn't have referred to his comic as having an advanced case of social justice cancer.

His comic devolved from merely having a race of beings with no concept of sexuality as a minor aspect of their culture to showcasing a pantheon of rainbow-unicorn sexualities and deviancies, none of which anyone thought was weird. Having a human and a vaguely-human looking, vampire insect-monster making out is weird, but you can kind of trick yourself into thinking they're both essentially human. No, the crowning moment of Homestuck's degeneration into pure tumblr-pandering was when Hussie had horribly mutated sprites of a brother and sister pair talking about how it's not weird they want to have sex with each other now that they were part cat. Really, don't oversimplify this aspect of Homestuck. Nothing like bestial undead incest to show how progressive you are, right?

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Last Edited By: SmashLampjaw Jan 21 17 10:07 PM. Edited 2 times.

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ohitsyou

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#180 [url]

Jan 21 17 10:22 PM

@ Essay Mod 
@Smash

Geeze, thats weird.

Its almost like he first starting adding gay people in for padding and pandering, then went full-circle, and started to actually believe what he was doing was progressive.

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